有一个很严肃,并且可能引起心理痛苦的问题想要讨论一下

由于这个问题可能引起很多人的共鸣和不适,因此请务必确保自己的心理状态和承受能力较好的时候再进行阅读。

如果阅读完问题有任何身心不适,建议转移一定的注意力,不要再思考,切勿陷入到某些负面情绪当中。

【由于空格和空行没什么作用所以人为打一些无意义的文字避免其在首页直接出现问题】

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那就是:

如何看待以及应对,一些认为跨性别或同性恋都是心理疾病,可以靠治疗的方式将“病人”扭转回普通人的观点?

遇到这种情况下,是否该反驳?该如何反驳?

如果持有这种观点的是家人该怎么办?如果家人很固执地持有这种观点该怎么办?

如果自己所在的国家和社会大部分人持有这种观点该怎么办?又该如何应对这样的国家和社会?

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1 看这种人的本身表现是否有足够的理性,以及我当时是不是有闲时间
做法也因人而异,从好好讲道理到打死
“对说了也不明白,揍了也不明白的笨蛋的话 ,接下来只有杀掉了呢”
2 我本人对亲缘和血缘的感觉是非常弱的,在意程度很低,对我的行为影响更大的是后天做过的事情建立的感情,所以会出现“因为是家人所以更恨对方给自己带来的影响优势”的情况,反而恨到抓狂
3 首先我不会爱特定的国家、社会、团体什么的,包括{{原跑路站}}
过于没有集体感和归属感的我,毫不犹豫地觉得他们错了吧
但具体的分析和做法可能很麻烦 经济基础决定上层建筑
就算我是神,灭了整个国家,又有什么用,大家又不会好
所以我大概会自我献祭自我放弃自我毁灭式地帮助大家吧
反正我活着也不会有好事发生,人生价值早就崩溃了

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如何应对?我的回答只有四个字:

接受现实。

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反正我只是会暂时屈服,绝不会彻底改变,而且还会越来越反感恶心

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不反驳,没人给我发工资陪他聊天;
离远点,等他们被时间淘汰;
传统这种东西随时可以被创造,也随时可以被消灭——打个比方:裹小脚的人有的现在还健在,但当下这习俗早就凉透了。

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I have talked this with an American. He thought transgender people were sick, and would kill them selves because of their own illness (not the unacceptable society). He said some people were crazy to think man’s brain and woman’s brain had no difference and people could do transition if they just thought they were the opposite gender. I said it weren’t true, there were differences between people’s brain with different gender. Actually, there were MRI results showed the transgender people were tended to have the brain similar to their affirmed gender. But he said these were all propagandas. I also said even you thought they were sick, since we now had no technologies to treat them, we should just let them perform transition. But he still insisted that 99% of them could be ‘normal’ when being forced by the society. None of us persuaded the other. But the talk was not ended up terribly. It was normal that different people with different opinions. I don’t think this is a very heavy or frustrating topic. What really fucked up is if the authority tend to against minorities such as the LGBT community, because that’s human rights violations. For ordinary people, it’s just fine to have different ideas. It’s impossible for you to persuade everyone, take it easy.

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1.【同性恋或跨性别都是心理疾病】:
这句话等同于:所有 同性恋 或 跨性别 都是 心理疾病。(=同性恋倾向和跨性别倾向是心理疾病造成的)
这时候需要找出一个反例就能证明该命题是错误的。
反驳0:【根据权威资料,同性恋倾向和跨性别倾向是由于大脑物理结构不同造成的】
同时,原命题应该改为:【同性恋或跨性别者可能同时伴有其他心理疾病】,而造成他们有心理疾病的原因并不是同性恋和跨性别倾向的本身,而是家庭与社会。
(这是一个明显的因果谬误)

2.【同性恋和跨性别者可以被扭转回“正常人”】
反驳1:【根据记载,有许多经过扭转治疗的同性恋者与跨性别者在他们出院后相继自杀。所以,强制改变心理性别与性取向会造成自杀,而不会变成‘正常人’。】
反驳2:【反驳0,而大脑的物理结构是不可改变的。所以,心理性别是不可改变的】
(因为b所以a,b不可改变,则a不可改变,这里b=大脑物理结构不同,a=拥有同性恋或跨性别倾向)

3.如果家人持有这种观点:
建议将权威资料翻译成中文后,以论文的形式给他们阅读。

4.如果自己所在的国家大部分人都持有这种观点:
在(3)的基础上,需要数百倍的时间来改变,而自己能做的,只能寻求一片能容纳自己的天空。

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我英语不算太好,不过我试着给出双语回复。

I’m not good at English, but I’ll try to reply you in two languages. (Chinese and English)

其实我所问的问题,我是有一定答案的。我个人倾向于认为性别是被建构的,是被其他人所定义的,真实的性别仅应存在于医学问题上。而社会性别,不应当是局限的,不应当只有两个,并且应当由个人决定。

I have my own answers to my questions. I think gender was constructed by society, and was defined by other people, I think sex is only matter at medical treatment. The gender we are, should not be cut into 2 sides, but there should be more. And we should decide who and what we are.

所以面对跨性别者,我并不是非常赞同“跨”成另一种性别的概念。我认为,人应当跨到更高的境界,而不是从一条河里跳到另一条河里。

So when I talk about transgender people, I don’t like the ideal that just trans to the other gender. I think people should “trans to” futher beyond, not just jump into another river from their own river.

在医学方面,我并不精通,我听说过性别不同大脑不同的说法,但我更愿意相信,人的大脑是不按性别区分的。要知道无数人曾攻击女性天生就没有一个足够聪明的大脑,所以我不倾向于接受这种说法。

I’m not professional at medical things. I heard about the theory that different genders have different types of brain. But I personal want to believe, that humans’ brains are not different with genders. Because people used this theory to against with women before, a lot people think women’s brains aren’t good at study and think. I don’t agree with that.

人和人之间的交流,可以有不同的意见。但是,如果是和父母呢?如果是和政府权威呢?要知道,在中国,一个普通的中学就有“权力”剪掉跨性别女性的长发,他们不会给你求同存异的机会,他们会通过洗脑或威胁的方式,强迫学生听他们的话。

Me and you could have different opinions. But what about parents? What about government and authority? You should know that in China, any regular middle school have “power” to cut anyone’s hair for “order” and “rules”, even they are transgender. They, don’t give any chance that normal students have their own “opinions”, they might try to brainwash (Like “you should follow the order and law”), or simply just threaten students with dismiss or other punishments.

当然我在帖子里不讨论与政府的对抗,仅考虑与家长的对抗。而这其实是跨性别者经常需要面对的问题。至少,目前,并不是所有家长都同意孩子拥有“不同的观点”,一些地方的家长甚至会把孩子关到封闭式的精神病院,或者地下医院。

Of course, I don’t try to incite people against their government or authority, I only ask the question about how to deal with parents and other people they meet everyday . And this is daily thing that almost every transgender have to face to. At least, for now, not every parents are OK with their kids have “different opinions”. Some parents even send their own child to psychiatric hospital which like jails, or underground hospital. (And they force transgender to be “normal” by beat them, let them eat or drink their own excreta, or other cruel punishment)

并且,针对社会,目前中国的社会没有足够开放,因此也需要一定的努力去改变,而遗憾的是,这些通常都不能友善地接受“对方和自己有不同的理想和意见”,反而总是经常会有冲突,而LGBT如果想获得应有的权利,可能不得不亲自开始更大的冲突。

And talk about the society, China isn’t open enough for now, so we need make a difference. Unfortunately, we can’t just look forward that they will simply accept that “people could have different ideals and opinions” ( Or there will be no fire wall that forbid people connect to facebook or youtube. ) So we have to “fight”. If LGBTs want to give back their own rights, maybe they need to “create conflict”.

回到我自己的问题,我可以给出我自己的答案。

Back to my questions, I could give my answers.

1和2,积极科普,积极交流,但遇到不开放的人,避免不必要的冲突。用理性和知识反驳。

1 and 2, just try to popular science and communicate, but if you find out they have a narrow view and stubborn mind, then try to avoid them. You may should argue by reasonable and knowledge, but don’t push it to hard.

3,尽量交流,但如果不能交流,就尽量做到经济独立,切断和家人的联系。

3, like 1 or 2, try to communicate with parents. But if it won’t work, then try to be independence, and just live with your own life.

4,如果形势变糟糕,就立刻这个国家。

4, if something bad happened, leave China ASAP.

凌子卿

I didn’t figure out how to reply to your sub-comment, so I reply to my comment.

Thanks for your reply.

I have no idea what to do if the people against you is your parents. That could be tragic and really not much a child can do. If your parents are reasonable then you can talk with them and show them the scientific fact and evidence. But if your parents are kind of dictators, things could be end up really bad. I can talk all these things like with my parents and they can understand new things as long as you explain it in detail and it make sense.

I absolutely agree with you that gender is a social concept and should not be binary. Not all gender non-confirming people are transgender. We could have agender, gender fluid, etc.

The brain difference, I saw it from the The Gender Creative Child by Dr. Diane Ehrensaft. I’m not 100% sure she is right, but this is the thing not about what you want to believe, but what it actually is. Even if there are differences, do not mean the differences related to intelligence or social ability.

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事实上,我在我的讨论中,提到的并不是我个人的家庭(尽管我个人的家庭更加糟糕),而是,大部分跨性别者的家庭。(你使用了“Your parents”,我并不知道是否是语言不同的问题,我没有明白你指代的具体的我的家长,还是说大众意义上的家长。)

In fact, when I talked about parents in my post, it doesn’t mean my parents literally.(Though my family fucked up even more.)Instead, I talk about the most LGBTs’ families. (You used “your parents”, I don’t know if you mean my own parents or just the meaning of everyone’s parents because the language difference.)

另一个问题,维基上说,泛性别和无性别可能是跨性别的一部分。

And another thing, it says pangender and agender may are included in transgender.

Transgender is also an umbrella term: in addition to including people whose gender identity is the opposite of their assigned sex (trans men and trans women), it may include people who are not exclusively masculine or feminine (people who are genderqueer or non-binary, including bigender, pangender, genderfluid, or agender)

那么问题来了,泛性别者和二元性别者的大脑是否有差异?两个同一性别的人,一个是搬运工人,而一个是大学教授,那么他们之间的大脑是否有差异?而如果说,同一性别中人和人之间的差异,大过了两个从事同一职业但是不同性别的人的差异,那么性别带来的差异是否有意义?

So here’s the question, does pangender’s and binary gender’s people’s brains have differences? And if there two persons are same gender, but one is worker or porter, and the other one is college professor, will there be different with their brains? If the differences of people’s brains between two types of works (Or behavior habits, even social class), are far more different than two genders, so what’s the point of the research that overemphasize the differences of two genders?

我不认为研究大脑是无意义的事情,只是,我认为这种理论暂时来说对于跨性别者没有直接的好处,而且,也没有得到广泛的认同,因此可以暂时搁置讨论,等待进一步的研究结果。

Of course, I don’t think surveying the brain is meaningless. But for now, I think this theory won’t help transgender people. And as long as I know, this theory isn’t widely accepted by international medical community, so I think we could just left it and wait for futher result later.

I didn’t indicate parents of you, I just meant parents. So sorry to hear you have non-supportive parents.

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